Nov 11 2006
A day of remembrance…
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place; and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.
We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved, and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders Fields.
Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders Fields.
- John McCrae
Oh, when will they ever learn?
Oh, when will they ever learn?
- Pete Seeger
http://www.tgw.on.ca/Matti/Essays/WhereFlowers.html
I never realised that one of my favorite Massive Attack song quoted Pete Seeger.
Canadians have gone 2 generations without having to send boys off to die for our freedom. I think that’s a testament to the ones who’ve already made the ulitimate sacrifice. May we continue to fight and work for worthy causes.
‘Worthy causes?’
My beef is NOT with the military – it is the duty of the military to carry out the policies of the government. It is our government’s policy in Afghanistan that’s misguided and flawed. This is not a ‘worthy cause.’
There is no ‘peace’ to ‘keep’ in Afghanistan. The British failed to pacify Afghanistan in the 19th century, the Soviets failed in the 20th century, and NATO will fail this century.
Propping up yet another corrupt regime in Afghanistan is not a cause that young Canadians should be asked to die for. Surely we have more sense than our neighbours to the south: stability, democracy and freedom cannot be imposed at the point of a gun.
There is no ‘peace’ to ‘keep’ in Afghanistan. The British failed to pacify Afghanistan in the 19th century, the Soviets failed in the 20th century, and NATO will fail this century.
The problem with this theory is twofold.
First, there wasn’t exactly “peace” to keep in Former Bits of Yugoslavia, nor were the tribes in Somalia all happy to stop fighting, nor were the Turks and Greeks exactly willing to stop shooting at each other. Even the Granddaddy of peacekeeping missions, Suez, involved lots of people wanting to kill other people were there.
Places that need military intervention aren’t “peaceful”. The entire myth that the CF is made up of “peacekeepers” is hardly worth supporting, in that “peacekeeping” is a bit of a myth in and of itself. The entire idea of the “peacekeeping” bit has always been that of deterrance: Put a bigger, nasty group of heavily armed people between factions A and B. The side that tries to continue to wage war then has to deal with the very real risk that they hit the “peacekeepers”, who would then proceed to help the other faction stomp them into a puddle.
The second problem is that our options are pretty limited at this point. Even if the war in Afghanistan is wrong and the leaders who led us in there are in rightfully earned disgrace(Jean Cretin and Paul Martin), they committed the CF to battle. If the Canadian government pulls out now, they will reduce the reputation of Canada to cinders. Canada has had it’s international reputation battered pretty in the dark years of the Cretin government, combined with the corruption of the Mulroney years and the sheer ineptitude of Trudeau on the international scene means that we’re barely hovering above Kazakahstan in terms of international credibility to begin with.
If we pull out of Afghanistan right now, it will not only reduce Canada to nothing less than zero in terms of international credibility, it will likely be the end of the confederation to boot.
Canada’s reputation reduced to cinders…how about no helmets in Yugoslavia. Families mailing soldiers GPS systems. Valient though they may be, I’m thinking it’sgetting to be time to get out of the “peacekeeping” game.
Plus, the emphasis was on having in my earlier comment, our current crisis is on a volunteer basis. So more respect to the men and women doing the work, jut a shame about the politics.
I don’t recall trying to make a case for Somalia, ‘former bits of Yugoslavia,’ or even Rwanda, for that matter.
‘International reputation’ is irrelevant to this debate – Canada has long since lost its reputation as the ‘honest broker’. I’d be more concerned that 60% of Canadians now oppose continued ISAF involvement.
Canada does not have, nor should it have, the military resources to conduct aggressive war.The drift from ‘true’ UN missions to NATO forces has, in my humble opinion, been unfortunate and ill-advised.
It’s time to set aside the cant about ‘stopping terrorism.’ Five years of NATO operations have merely exascerbated the situation in Afghanistan. Sure, things would be bad if ISAF pulled out. But things are bad already; ISAF’s mission has failed.
‘International reputation’ is irrelevant to this debate – Canada has long since lost its reputation as the ‘honest broker’. I’d be more concerned that 60% of Canadians now oppose continued ISAF involvement.
Setting aside the validity of that or any poll, it doesn’t matter what 60% of Canadian believe today: On September 12th 2001, enough Canadians were bound and determined that they wanted this war. So now that we’re committed to it and there is some negative consequences to it, if Canada cuts and runs, it will forever destroy Canada’s reputation abroad.
I think you’re seriously minimizing the effect it will have internally. Look at the effect that the loss of the Vietnam War had on the US. They had internal strife to go along with the loss of international reputation.
Really, there are two kinds of wars that a country can lose. Expeditionary and self-preservation. The loss of a war of self-preservation has obvious consequences, but the loss of a war of expedition has sometimes more ominous effects. The best modern example of the effects of loss of both of these kinds of wars comes from France. They lost a series of self-preservation wars(Franco-Prussian, WW1–Stalemated– and WW2), but what really has impacted the French psyche like no other has been the losses of expeditionary wars like the Napoleonic, Seven Years War and Vietnam wars. This is where they started to develop the xenophobic paranoia about “protecting the French culture”. Contrary to popular belief, it’s not just the French in Quebec who are like that, they’re all like that: They have serious fears that they’re going to be forced to stop being French.
I’d say that giving up on Afghanistan right now would be like surrendering to Germany in the wake of the Dieppe Raid.
Canada does not have, nor should it have, the military resources to conduct aggressive war.
No offense Matti, but if we cannot wage “aggressive” war, does this mean that we should have them equipped to wage “unagressive” war instead?
War is like open heart surgury. It’s not meant to be pretty and no matter how well it’s done, the patient is stil ripped open from stem to stern. But if it’s done for the right reasons and with the right approach, the patient ends up living.
It’s time to set aside the cant about ’stopping terrorism.
On this, I agree. I think that this was one of the most dangerous shifts in political practice in recent history.
First, terrorism is not a collective organization, it’s a tactic. Declaring war on it would be like the US declaring war on aviation in the wake of the raid on Pearl Harbour.
Second, the Westphalian system of nation states makes a pretty clear case that nation states can only wage war on other nation states. If I join a group that raises funds to blow up bridges in Lower Bloggistan, Lower Bloggistan cannot declare war on Greg. They could declare it on Canada or even British Columbia, but individuals are not things you can declare war on. I think that this is a huge risk to the stability of the system and should not be risked.
Of course, reality is that the Westphalian system is extremely Eurocentric in nature: We’re fighting people who don’t have the same concepts of nationhood as western thought lays it out. Even when we were fighting the Russians, both sides understood the ideas of borders and nation states.
I personally think that the “War on Terrorism” is an attempt to dumb down how war is waged and considered as an international relations option for the masses.
Five years of NATO operations have merely exascerbated the situation in Afghanistan. Sure, things would be bad if ISAF pulled out. But things are bad already; ISAF’s mission has failed.
I’d say that the effects of the war in Afghanistan have had exactly the desired effect: It’s hard to plot and train for your next attack in North America if you’re dodging 105mm artillery shells.
The best part of “In Flanders Fields” is the threat of zombie vengeance.
I mean, “if… we shall not sleep” is clearly a threat of rising from the grave to wreak an awful toll on the living, yes?
Hey Mon,
Nothing new to post in the last little while? Man, you must be real busy!
I miss the Zombie posters…….
Say it ain’t so mug…..
OK, it’s pretty clear that Muggie isn’t updating this site. Black helicopters! It must be the gummint!
By the way Patrick, drop a dime. I’ve been busy, lots of updates and new stuff. Like, I don’t work at “The job” no more and will be a full time college student in January.